I've come to a sad realization...

[dioje787]

Hello friends.  Late last night, I came to realize that what we are experiencing here is two diametrically opposed views that cannot be reconciled, UNLESS one substantially compromises the core of their beliefs.  While I admire Kenny ABSOLUTELY and do consider him to be a good friend, at THIS POINT, I cannot pull the trigger and join this organization.  Why?

In my view, an organization already exists for this purpose and was designed 2000 years ago.  It was conceived LONG before that, and has taken many thousands of years to come into fruition... and still has much to do.  This organization is known as the Church of Israel's Messiah... Jesus Christ.  :)  As with ANY organization, over the years... and at various times... corruption has sought to end it.  But it did not succeed.  And the world increasingly will hate this Church (and the nation of Israel), and try to destroy them... but it will fail, just as the previous attempts in human history.

A world under the reign of that Messiah WILL BE the Ideal World that you seek.  But if you choose to reject it, then the Ideal will always elude you.  From Revelation 21:3-8 (after the Wrath is completed and Jesus brief WAR against the armies of the world is over):  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them.  They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.  He will wipe EVERY tear from their eyes.  There will be NO MORE death or mourning or crying or pain, for the OLD ORDER of things has passed away.  He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"  Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are TRUSTWORTHY and TRUE."  He said to me, "It is DONE.  I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.  To him who is THIRSTY I will give to drink without COST from the spring of the water of LIFE.  He who overcomes will inherit ALL THIS, and I will be his God and he will be my son.  But the cowardly, the UNBELIEVING, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.  This is the second death."  

There is much more about this place written... "they will beat their swords into plowshares," "neither will they learn war anymore," etc...  The Bible addresses all of your proposed credos, and provides a solution.  But to find a world where that solution exists, one must  submit to God and accept his ONLY method of salvation and forgiveness.  As Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life... no one comes to the Father, but through me."  I encourage anyone who might read this in the future to simply say silently with your lips, "Jesus, if you are real, come into my heart right now and PROVE It to me.  I accept that I have something inside that compels me to sin and act apart from what I know to be right by conscience, and I ask that your sacrifice and blood atone for my sin.  Thank you for dying for me!"  Then find a GOOD church... not a cult... not one stuck in centuries of empty tradition... where the Bible is preached and spoken and studied, and people are seeking to change the world and help people according to God's ways and plan.  The Church, by design is much more successful in helping those who need it, instead of government.

The problem is, that most flat-out reject this idea.  They, like John on this board, have no respect for the God of the Bible and would never dream of submitting to Him.  (Okay... maybe John is a little more angry than most at this God... but whether a little or a lot... there is no real difference.  Rejection is rejection).  At the end of days, the Bible speaks that the sun will become very hot... true Global Warming!  :)  Quote from Rev 16:8  "The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given the power to scorch people with fire.  They were seared by the intense heat and the cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues.  BUT THEY REFUSED TO REPENT AND GLORIFY HIM."   This shows that even when the Wrath of God is poured out and there is convincing EVIDENCE that this God exists, there will be those like John (although I hope John would submit before then) who will continue to shake their fist at God out of principle... and spite.  Jesus said that "Just as the world hated me, it will hate you" because the world hates God.  (Although they LOVE the gods of this world).

So groups, such as IWF, are created to bring about a SECULAR or "progressive" solution to the world's problems.  (I know that in Kenny's case, his idea is based on only GOOD intentions and motivations!  He sees the world, and it appears to be a farked up mess).  And as I have observed, almost all of these solutions have a liberal/socialist slant.  AND these groups tend to harbor those who have no respect and usually a deep hatred for anything leaning right/conservative/religious!  

So really, when the two views try to combine, those who are religious are the ones who must compromise their beliefs in order to be compatible to the secular solution.  If they don't, then they are ridiculed... if not publicly, then inside of the other members' private thoughts, because those who are secular will always believe they are more enlightened than those who choose to believe superstitiously in an unseen God.  

So, I've realized that if the time is growing short for this planet before the end of the current age and the beginning of the next one, where would it be most profitable for me to focus my efforts????  (This is indeed the most IMPORTANT question for a follower of Jesus Christ in circumstances such as this).  

Would it be most fruitful if I focus my time and energies into an organization such as IWF who seeks a secular solution to the world's problems, and believes God is not necessary (but welcome if you are inferior and believe in such a rudimentary concept) to solve them?  That human beings can solve these problems on their own and that Evil is not an insurmountable force beyond which human beings cannot triumph?  That human beings are not corrupt at their core and do not need to be saved and transformed by the God of the Bible?  That all religions and belief systems are equal in the eyes of man, and that one particular one is no more correct than the next?  Etc... etc... etc...

OR, should I focus my time and energies into the solution I find in the pages of the Bible... which I know to be true and which I have experienced the miraculous in my life MANY times to confirm this to me?  Especially since the solution to the world's problems is so easily laid out and explained in it's pages... and the picture of the world AFTER this solution is explained so beautifully and briefly that one realizes it is so indescribable that we cannot even comprehend it at this time???  And the Church's goal is to tell this story to as many people as possible and help them find their way into the True Ideal World, by God's help, to save them from the Wrath that is coming on those who refuse to submit to the God who created them and instead choose to worship idols, false concepts and THEMSELVES.

How I wish I could write on this board and it would change the mind of John or Mike or many others.  Perhaps it could?  One soul is so valuable that it would be worth spending my WHOLE LIFE typing and convincing John to submit to this wonderful and amazing God IF such efforts were successful and he became a member of the Kingdom of God.  But from past experience, it seems such arguments always lead to nowhere and are fruitless.  And there are SO MANY lost and hurting people in the world who need this message!  And better yet, many of them are HUNGRY and willing to understand and accept this message, and have NOT HARDENED THEIR HEARTS towards God as it appears John has.  To live in such a place is so dangerous, and I do not envy anyone who chooses it.

So Kenny, my friend... I wholeheartedly admire you as a person and I KNOW your intentions are solely good.  As I mentioned, I would LOVE for you to come over to the mountains and camp once this summer!  You have a brilliant mind, and I would thoroughly enjoy sitting by the campfire and debating/talking until the sun comes up as I have with others many times!

But Kenny, you also remember where I stand on these things.  I have chosen to believe in the Rider on the White Horse, and as silly as it seems to those who are secular, I am waiting on HIM to come and create that Ideal World, because I realize that any movement created by man is doomed to failure, because man is corrupt.  (I mean Kenny... you haven't been successful in your battles against pizza, beer and unhealthy lifestyle as of yet, because you battle desires that are unseen... how can you expect to be victorious against evil powers MUCH stronger than even the desires of the flesh that seek to control the world?) :) There IS that which is Evil, and to fight against it in our own strength is Futile.  We DO need a god... THE God to be victorious.  We cannot take a world he created, AND WE CORRUPTED by choosing Sin instead of obedience, and try to fix it according to OUR plan... instead of accepting his ONLY plan to restore it to what it was designed to be.

And to those who are believers in Christ who have been convinced that it is possible to mingle and mix with other religions and belief systems in order to bring about a better world... that is just the repackaging of an old lie.  You will always, in the end, be expected to change your views, because they are ALWAYS in opposition to all others.  That's the way God designed it to be.  :)  Don't shoot the messenger.

I will choose to focus my energies elsewhere, because I must.  I do not ridicule your endeavors... I simply offer my opinion as to why it will not succeed.  And when it does not succeed, it is not because of YOU.

I will stop by on occasion, because I am interested in how far a spark of an idea in one person's head can snowball.  :)  And I wish, for my sake, that you (Kenny) will come to accept this Messiah, and be my friend Forever.  

Doug

[John]

Sorry to see you go. I can't say that I have enjoyed all of our exchanges, but I will say that they have certainly been stimulating.

One thing I think you should consider is the possibilility that atheists (of atheistic leaning agnostics) are not all miserable people who are angry at god. I am very happy, as all those who know me will attest.

I am not angry at god. I have not hardened my heart to him, as you have suggested. I just consider god to be a fictitious character. It would be pretty ridiculous of me to be angry with him. Like having a feud with Grandpa Simpson.

What truly angers me is seeing religious people (of any persuasion) spouting the rhetoric of war. A spiritual war. A battle between good and evil. The axis of evil. Jihad. I consider these ideas dangerous and ignorant and will aggressively oppose them wherever they arise.

[dioje787]

John Wrote:Sorry to see you go. I can't say that I have enjoyed all of our exchanges, but I will say that they have certainly been stimulating.

One thing I think you should consider is the possibilility that atheists (of atheistic leaning agnostics) are not all miserable people who are angry at god. I am very happy, as all those who know me will attest.

I am not angry at god. I have not hardened my heart to him, as you have suggested. I just consider god to be a fictitious character. It would be pretty ridiculous of me to be angry with him. Like having a feud with Grandpa Simpson.

What truly angers me is seeing religious people (of any persuasion) spouting the rhetoric of war. A spiritual war. A battle between good and evil. The axis of evil. Jihad. I consider these ideas dangerous and ignorant and will aggressively oppose them wherever they arise.

Of course, I will stay to watch this thread for awhile.  You know your own level of happiness... I don't.  If you are satisfied with your current state, that is your decision.  But I understand the concept of war within MYSELF.  For many years, I battled my own demons and addictions.  I guess if you don't fight them, it is NOT war, but surrender instead.

And I believe that there is Good and Evil.  There is Right and Wrong.  And when corrupt governments and ideologies seek to dominate the world by force and edict, they must be fought.  That was the case with Naziism... that was the case with Communism... that is the case now with Islamic Fascism.  If you choose to surrender to ideologies such as that, that is entirely your prerogative.  Europe certainly will, it seems... as usual.  

If there weren't those who stood up and fought such ideologies in the past, the world, as bad as it seems now, would be MUCH MUCH worse.  As I've said before, war at this point in time, is the only useful tool against such things, which is unfortunate, but true.  The only other option is to surrender or run... and if you choose the latter, they will eventually find you and conquer you.  Self defense, through war, is a neccessity, for now... until the Day comes where, "They will learn war no more."

You are correct to be upset at the concept of Jihad, my friend.  But there is a big difference in Jihad and fundamental Christianity.  We are waiting for our Savior to take over the world... not trying to do it for him through war and domination.  

Also, you say you aren't angry at God, because you don't believe he exists... like Grandpa Simpson.  BUT, as I and many others can see, you are PLAINLY angry and harbor hate towards the Biblical CONCEPT of God.  If you do not admit this, then you are living in a state of denial.

I was never agitated with you or anything of the sort.  Debate is debate... it should not be personal.  :)

[John]

dioje787 Wrote:I guess if you don't fight them, it is NOT war, but surrender instead.

I know that you are referring here to addiction, but do you believe that in the current battle between the west and the Middle East (it could be simpilified to a battle between christianity and islam, but that is an excessive and unjustifiable simplification, in my opinion), war and surrender are the only two options?

And Europe doesn't want to fight ('as usual', you say). How many world wars have raged on the US mainland? Perhaps Europe understands the consequences of real war in a way that cocksure armchair commanders half a world away don't. Hmm? Possible?

dioje787 Wrote:Also, you say you aren't angry at God, because you don't believe he exists... like Grandpa Simpson.  BUT, as I and many others can see, you are PLAINLY angry and harbor hate towards the Biblical CONCEPT of God.  If you do not admit this, then you are living in a state of denial..

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you (and the many others to whom you refer) are wrong.

I am not angry at god, or any concept of god. I am angry at christian fundamentalists and their simplistic worldview. I think the rhetoric that has spouted from bush's mouth is jihad by another name. Holy war, or whatever you want to call it. Without religion the world would be a much more pleasant place. You choose to read this as an anger directed at god. This is bizarre. Try to understand me: I don't believe in god.

Really.

[dioje787]

John Wrote:I know that you are referring here to addiction, but do you believe that in the current battle between the west and the Middle East (it could be simpilified to a battle between christianity and islam, but that is an excessive and unjustifiable simplification, in my opinion), war and surrender are the only two options?

No... the current war is NOT between Christianity and Islam.  Those who are Islamo Fascists have chosen to define it in such a way, and declared war on the West long ago.  The West was too blind to notice until 9/11.  The west has many options.  They include surrender, appeasement, fighting a politically-correct war doomed to failure, OR realizing it is a war of self defense, and the only way to realize the desired result is fighting with uncompromising VICTORY in mind.  That was the same way we defeated the Axis powers in WWII.  If you negotiate with Islamo fascists, they will always lie and laugh behind your back because you are weak and gullible.  And they will continue to push the edge of the envelope until the world lives under sharia law.  Europe's weakness (with the help of Russia and China) will lead to Islamo fascists acquiring nuclear weapons, which will make their jobs MUCH easier... and Europe will appease much faster than even to Hitler.  (Of course, it is possible that the U.S. or Israel will seek to end that threat before it is realized... and Europe, China and Russia will be very angry if that happens).

John Wrote:And Europe doesn't want to fight ('as usual', you say). How many world wars have raged on the US mainland? Perhaps Europe understands the consequences of real war in a way that cocksure armchair commanders half a world away don't. Hmm? Possible?

That is Europe's weakness.  They always think that if they bury their heads in the sand and appease those who would conquer them that nothing will happen to them... and then they wake up the next day under someone else's control.  And inevitably, it seems, they EXPECT America (whom they choose to ridicule and mock) to come save them once again.

So you think it would have been better if America left Europe alone in WWI and WWII and the Cold War and let them appease and lose to Germany, Italy, and Russia?  Maybe you would choose to appease such ideologies, but I have a feeling there are those living in Europe who might still remember just a little bit that America provided the greatest possible gift to them.  Unfortunately, they slide more and more down the path of Socialism, which leads to totalitarianism... so maybe it WAS a waste of time and effort on our part.

There have always been, and will continue to be appeasers.  They would even appease and make agreements with lunatics like Ahmadeenajad and Chavez.  It's the nature of the beast, I guess.  And those who hate America, liberty and freedom even ADMIRE such tyrants and ideologies.  (Cindy Sheehan anyone?)  Simply amazing (and troubling).

John Wrote:You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you (and the many others to whom you refer) are wrong.

I am not angry at god, or any concept of god. I am angry at christian fundamentalists and their simplistic worldview. I think the rhetoric that has spouted from bush's mouth is jihad by another name. Holy war, or whatever you want to call it. Without religion the world would be a much more pleasant place. You choose to read this as an anger directed at god. This is bizarre. Try to understand me: I don't believe in god.

Really.

I have read your post where you ridiculed God... about Abraham being tested to see if he would sacrifice his son Isaac... the father who made a STUPID and unecessary vow to God that he would sacrifice the next person to walk through the door (it was not God's idea)... and the command that the armies of Israel go in and destroy every man, woman, child and animal of those who were the enemies of God (i.e. total and uncompromising victory over that which is evil).  

You DO, in fact, have a big problem with the Biblical CONCEPT of God.  I did not say you believed in him.  But you abhor the concept AND those who choose to believe it.  God is not barbaric... but those who separate themselves from him inevitably end up in barbarity.  (i.e. Nazism, Fascism, Communism, Socialism, Islamo Facsicm, et al)  There are MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of dead people left in their wake.  And when those systems set themselves up against God, he has no choice but to judge them.  And one Day, he will judge ALL that is opposed to him and pour out his wrath that he has saved for so long... and those who DID choose to accept his plan will live in the Ideal World that you claim to desire.

And also, on that Day, one might think that just because they tried to be good and a part of noble concepts such as IWF to try to change the world and do GOOD THINGS, that somehow... if there is a God... then he will say, "Aww.. come on in.  You tried to be good!"  That will not suffice, and he will be forced to say, "Depart from me... I never knew you"... because you wouldn't let yourself be known according to his ONLY way back to him.

Just saw a story that couldn't have come at a better time to prove my point about European appeasement... Heaven forbid we should make Iran FEEL BAD. http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/paNucle...tlead.html Thank you, Mr. Blix. You're a lousy negotiator, but very useful as an example of what NOT to do.

[John]

dioje787 Wrote:That is Europe's weakness.  

The desire to avoid war is weakness. Negotiation is appeasement. The USA helped europe in WWI and WWII, and that makes it master of war, and europe should now and forever bow to its desires.

Is that a good summary?

Believe what you like. In this, as in everything else, we must disagree.

dioje787 Wrote:I have read your post where you ridiculed God... about Abraham being tested to see if he would sacrifice his son Isaac... the father who made a STUPID and unecessary vow to God that he would sacrifice the next person to walk through the door (it was not God's idea)... and the command that the armies of Israel go in and destroy every man, woman, child and animal of those who were the enemies of God (i.e. total and uncompromising victory over that which is evil).  

You DO, in fact, have a big problem with the Biblical CONCEPT of God.  

If you will peruse my post in which I raised those issues, you will see that I did not raise them for the purpose of ridiculing god. I raised them to demonstrate that scripture is not a good source for a moral code.

So what if god didn't ask for the vow. He accepted it, and accepted payment. Don't look for wormholes on that one. God approved the slaughter of an innocent. Again.

And you demonstrate for me perfectly the problem I have with religion. I give an example of god approved biblical genocide, and you approve of it because it supposedly eradicated evil. The goats, too? Please. Genocide is a bad thing. Only religion can be used to approve it. That is the danger of religion. Only religion can turn off an individual's sense of right and wrong. They slaughtered infants, and you say, '[they] were the enemies of God.'

You seem to think that my pointing all this out represents some deep-seated anger on my part. It does not. It does, however, represent a deep-seated bafflement. How can anyone in their right mind read the bible, and call the god found there a loving one. It beggars belief.

[dioje787]

Another thought... I am constantly amazed at the ridiculous concepts and beliefs (in my opinion of course... to others they seem sound) those who refuse to believe in God WILL accept. (Global warming, false political ideologies, and flawed/deceptive theories that won't hold water). It goes back to the two world views. And these views will NEVER be compatible. And neither side will ever understand the other. One side will win... one side will lose... and neither side will give up until the end. Unfortunately for MY side, the world has a history of trying to kill us, because we always stand in the way of their plans for the world. :)

[yames]

Doug
Im not only disappointed to lose your input in the debating aspect of this endeavour, but also to see you quit on an opportunity to contribute some of your energy into making the world a better place. I understand you feel your energy would be better directed elsewhere however Jesus walked with sinners of the worst kind. Don't you want to try and fashion your life after his? No matter where you go there will always be ememies of God there. The Kingdom of heaven lies WITHIN. Therefore without you around that will be one less light of Gods shining. It seems that your leaving because you can't change one or two peoples mind. While I understand the heartache you experience on that, its even more disheartening to see you walk away. Its Johns and Mikes and everyone elses choice to believe in God or not. God himself gave us all the freedom to choose, so I spose Ill have to respect your choice to leave also but I dont like it one bit. There are plenty of others here who read your posts and you have no idea where your seeds may be taking root.

[yames]

Also

dioje Wrote:because I realize that any movement created by man is doomed to failure, because man is corrupt.

We are made in his likeness. Man is the vehichle thru which God does his work. Its exhausting I know but dont lose heart. Last week a man was greeting all who entered the church I attend wearing a t-shirt which read "You can't reason with Christians... they have their heads too far up their ass". It makes me wonder how the leaders of the church who have invested so much into the place felt about that? Knowing them as I do I suspect they saw an opportunity not a heathen. We are here to help the lost moreso by our actions than by our words. Just quietly you obviously had some positive effect on people around here (whether they recognise it or not) because IMO its not possible  to ingest the word of God into places where its hated without stirring things up in that persons spirit.

[yames]

john Wrote:What truly angers me is seeing religious people (of any persuasion) spouting the rhetoric of war. A spiritual war. A battle between good and evil.

This truly angers you? Why? I believe there is a spiritual war with my entire being. Infact I can't understand how poeple who DONT see it can MISS it. To my mind, evil and good are clearly in opposition. I cant see it any other way.